PS3 Development Tools from fail0verflow


Submitted by greg; January 02, 2011


Team fail0verflow has setup a git repository and committed some early code... Here you'll find code to pack/unpack PUP and PKG files, sign/encrypt and unsign/decrypt SELFs, and carry out some other developer related tasks. Consider this a work-in-progress for which devs to further hack on. If you're an aspiring PS3 dev or hacker I suggest you dig in. Download: fail0verflow PS3 Tools for Win32 fail0verflow PS3 Tools for Linux



Tags: fail0verflow, makepkg, makeself, norunpack, PS3 Dev, PS3 Development, PS3 Tools, puppack, pupunpack, readself, sceverify, unpkg, unself




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Comments 


 
# Jorge 2011-01-02 22:30
Seen it already, the incoming months will be so f*ckin' awesome.

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# Rob G 2011-01-02 22:33
Are you fucking serious? "First" ? You can't say anything related to the damn post you just read? I wish people that posted "First" would get banned.


this tool kit is great, I cant wait to run back manager on my 3.55 ps3. Today has been a hell of a day for the Ps3 World. :D

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# skofield 2011-01-02 22:38
months? try weeks, devs will lose sleep over soemthing this big, man this week alone we may well see a backup managger compatible with 3.55

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# suwan 2011-01-02 22:50
theres a backup manager for 3.55?? does that mean we can play gt5 now? sorry, havent been on for a while...

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# skofield 2011-01-02 22:52
do you even bother READING?!

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# Aphex 2011-01-02 23:12
all this hacking news is awesome. great way to kick off the new year.

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# Fallen0ne 2011-01-02 23:17
Man I wish I knew what I could do with these lol.
It'd be nice to mess around with.

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# Steve 2011-01-02 23:19
Well I never thought I would see the day this would happen. This will change everything. psjailbreak.com and psdowngrade.com has been down for over a week now. I guess they are shutting down since you wont be needing a dongle anymore. Hello online play again (hopefully)...

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# fight645 2011-01-02 23:21
So if I understand the post does this mean as of now we can sign any homebrew we want now because of this and no more need for cfw or things like that

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# Steve 2011-01-02 23:22
No now we can make REAL cfws like the psp

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# klitzs 2011-01-02 23:22
How will you install Pkg files without a jailbroken ps3

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# Steve 2011-01-02 23:24
Just turn on the system and your jailbroken no usb dongle needed

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# fight645 2011-01-02 23:28
Thats great news but I wonder if sony can detect this when its finally done and ban people?

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# Stealthgyro 2011-01-02 23:28
Thats the big story, basically hacked consoles are done so we can run unsigned code because figuring out to sign a code is crazy because it basically requires a random number and a publishers key... well $ony used a non-random number they figured out the key so we can sign our own code meaning, no need to jailbreak.

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# klitzs 2011-01-02 23:29
They can't detect files that are signed (at least i'm pretty sure they cant tell the difference from official and non)

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# klitzs 2011-01-02 23:31
Jonlimle a ps3 dev told me i would need a jailbroken ps3 to install a pkg file

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# Steve 2011-01-02 23:32
This will let us make a cfw by unpacking .PUPs or OFW and then packing them back up and signing them so if your ps3 is on FW 3.55 and someone makes a CFW 3.60 then you could just update the ps3 from 3.55 to a CFW and be jailbroken from there

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# klitzs 2011-01-02 23:34
even when the homebrew is signed

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# mateo124 2011-01-02 23:40
hmmm should I update my 3.41 ps3 to 3.55 yet?

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# Steve 2011-01-02 23:40
we are not talking about homebrew this is about Firmwares and .selfs and how we can sign them so the ps3 will think they are from sony and not custom

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# Steve 2011-01-02 23:43
I wouldn't. This could take a while or it could be a week or less who knows

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# MikeTheInfidel 2011-01-03 00:20
Nope. There is literally no way to determine the difference.

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# Brick 2011-01-03 00:54
Not true at all... part of what custom firmware would (hopefully) include is a pkg installer...

I honestly doubt it'd be all that difficult... >.>

(Don't even ask, I program windows and BASIC and (very little) C++... I don't know the first thing about PS3, and I SUCK at Linux.

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# Yo Mama 2011-01-03 01:18
umm... the PSP doesn't have any REAL CFWs, they are all hacks. a REAL cfw could simply be installed from the UPDATE folder on an unmodified PSP.

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# dxcool223 2011-01-03 02:39
can they patch this ??????

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# Dee 2011-01-03 02:43
Sony really fuck themselves when they selfishly took otherOs away from us! Now the most powerful underated system on the market will get unlocked without those damn dongles!!

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# I got problems 2011-01-03 03:45
LOL YEAHHH SEX THE PS3 YEAH!!! lol
seriously just buss a XBMC on the ps3, make it play xbox 1, i mean the ps3 could do with more games in general anyways.
I heard NULLdc a dreamcast emulator is gettin ported to the ps3.

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# bernardo 2011-01-03 03:57
awesome!!!!!

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# tshsa 2011-01-03 04:02
that really awesome but when you make a new CFW i gusse this take a while so plz if you want help i'll be ready it's
the most great news

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# SONYFAILS! 2011-01-03 04:03
Im kinda confused, yea i see that sony were being lazy fuckers and didn't change the 'randomized' number, but can't they just change that with a firmware update and just make it use a different number ?? or would that mean they would have to rewrite every single key for the ps3 ?? I don't know im a n00b when it comes to ps3, I DON'T EVEN HAVE 1 XD !!

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# tshsa 2011-01-03 04:08
You should wait friend all what do you want to know is come in the way but sony i really don't know if they can but i hope not

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# Demo Mania 2011-01-03 04:15
This is great, now game developers for the PS3 will have to implement real copy protections, if they think it'll be worthwhile... Then again people who do piracy is quite small to the normal gamers, so it could be overlooked, even if the PS3 game prices could be a bit lower to match more the PC version, I usually buy PC version for 1/4 of the PS3 price... Open manager 3.55 FW here we come...

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# HuggyNuggy 2011-01-03 04:17
this probably means the end of online games for ps3 though.
$ony has never done much against hackers and glitchers, and with signed code allowed in now, games like CoD:BOPS and BFBC2 are doomed. Hackers will overflow those games and consumers who buy the game will be overly dissapointed...

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# Christian 2011-01-03 04:22
Err... If they changed the key then every single game would need to be updated to include that new key, and even then, it's kinda pointless because it would need to be signed with the current key, and it wouldn't be hard to decrypt it and get the new one. Plus, they would need to do more than simply changing the key. If they just change it, then it could be found the same way it was found the first time.

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# HuggyNuggy 2011-01-03 04:38
i'm reaaaaally dying to get my hands on a decent N64 emulator!

would be awesome to play both my old SNES and N64 collection, especially both mariokarts !!!

good old days :P

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# SONYFAILS! 2011-01-03 04:40
Ohh Ok thanks alot you cleared that up a bit. So what can sony do to counter this fail ?? If they can anyways =D

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# Phillyphries 2011-01-03 04:45
This is about as illegal as a keygen for PC software.

Using the counterfeit code to forge sony's digital signature AND breaking the System Software Update End User Agreement which states "You may not use any unauthorized, illegal, counterfeit, or modified hardware or software in connection with the System Software, including use of such tool to bypass, disable, or circumvent any encryption, security, or authentication mechanism for the PS3™ system"

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# war breaker 2011-01-03 04:48
yeah, but its doing wonders for the homebrew community, and all we ever wanted was to do what we wanted with our console, without feeling the pain of losing the regular access of what sony offers us, we're not all pirates

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# war breaker 2011-01-03 04:49
and technically its not a "counterfeit" code, cause its the same code sony uses to sign their own apps lol

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# MikeTheInfidel 2011-01-03 04:50
Except that the EULA only applies to people who agree to it. Anyone can use these tools.

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# klitzs 2011-01-03 05:07
Greg this is totally off topic but could you make a favicon for this site? psp-hacks has one and i like that i just have so many blank bookmarks it's hard to find this site ;)

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# chrisice 2011-01-03 05:26
Hello,

Does this mean that it will also be possible to downgrade or use a new way to hack the new slim ps3 with fw3.50? I can't downgrade now and wait patienly for a solution!

Sorry but i don't understand all the terms :-)

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# kevrocs 2011-01-03 05:34
soon you shouldnt need to downgrade since devs will be able to sign everything

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# kevrocs 2011-01-03 05:37
check out ps3 hax devs peeps at psx scene currently working on a way to play gt5 and nfs hp shouldnt be long now and the ps3 will be wide open for all woop woop

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# Phillyphries 2011-01-03 05:43
But by updating you agreed to the EULA sometime. lol xD

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# war breaker 2011-01-03 05:48
Breaking news from KaKaRoToKS twitter, he has been successful in creating his first CFW PUP! Although he says that he wont release anything until after he has had a chance to test it out, sometime next week.

Quote:
Created my first CFW PUP! can't test it until next week though (and no, I won't release it until I know it's not a bricker).
When asked if he modified anything in the CFW, Kernel or bootloader etc, KaKaRoToKS replied:
Quote:
no, just dev_flash to add the 'install pkg files' option
Source: twitter.com/KaKaRoToKS
_______________ ___

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# Animus 2011-01-03 05:55
It has begun!!

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# Phillyphries 2011-01-03 05:59
The only thing I would love to see is a signed backup manager so I can preserve my Assassins creed collection and Madden. Or something along those lines xD

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# Filipay 2011-01-03 06:37
wait.... i'm pretty sure that to get the key they need to know the randomized number... so if they changed RANDOM key they wouldn't have a CLUE what is the security code...
although now that they have depkg id say they'd be able to just take a part a firmware and find the change in the code... they would look for a certain part so id say wee or two... max a month... anyways.. the ps3 is as good as gone to sony... ps4 is coming in 2/3 years

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# lalelo 2011-01-03 06:47
is this safe..? what if some hacker genius out there who is also microsoft xbox fanboy made a trojan in a hidden homebrew/game that would destroy every ps3 on earth?

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# war breaker 2011-01-03 07:02
.................no......................just no..........................

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# HuggyNuggy 2011-01-03 07:14
the first eboot's have been decrypted, rewritten and encrypted again:
http://psx-scene.com/forums/f6...

also, there is a 3.41 enable eboot.bin available for NFS:HP (US version) here:
http://psx-scene.com/forums/f1...

So finally we can play our LEGALLY OWNED (!) games and simultaniously play our old ALSO LEGALLY OWNED (!) Snes and Dreamcast games!

pure awesomeness!

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# Myoga- 2011-01-03 07:50
Sony can not fix this, first off, its written to memory sectors that are inaccessible for writing to and if they did, every game you know of, every patch, upgrade, dlc, etc, would become invalidated and no longer be able to run.

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# Ant 2011-01-03 08:56
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# helghast 2011-01-03 09:07
@Yo Mama I just hate people like you who just talk crap, you don't know shit!

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# Demo Mania 2011-01-03 09:10
Considering the PS3 got max 2 good years left, the average PC has already passed it in performance, and every year they double that step... The PS4 should be just around the corner now, hopefully pushed up for a earlier release by Sony...

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# SpawnOfJago 2011-01-03 09:41
So... GT5 and Hot pursuit working now, this is great. Now they won't ask "is it working yet" anymore. Now they won't have to ask that anymore about another game for a while cause the gates are open to 3.55. So it is written, so it shall be done!

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# Tenrai 2011-01-03 09:58
This is abysmal!

I mean how cold Sony allow this scrawny kid to ruin everything? Not every one wants to run linux on their Ps3s
(Which in my opinion is an appaling pretext to hack PS3 in the first place) heck how can some one trust the "homebrew" apps? what if these apps syphon off PSN account details? then wouldn't we all be in a pinch?

This is a sad day indeed at least for the honest lot, I condone piracy! A machine is only as good to the developer if they can make money off it. With this new discovery doors to piracy are forever open --or Not, Sony has not yet responded to this fiasco-- entailing ultimately the death of Ps3

Billions of dallors are at stake here and what puzzles me is the fact that Sony didn't haul Georgy's sorry ass to rot in Jail, why?... I mean all the entertainment industry is up at arms with the whole torrent scene with threats of prosecution and Jail time. Shouldn't such measure be taken against George here?

Plus if so much is at stack here why didn't Sony have this kid roughed up? extorted? assassinated? --I bet he'd piss his pants --then to allow for this debacle to continue and culminate into "Ecip Fail" on Sony's part... Beats me!

I must say, "This Kid has BALLS"

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# Atomizer 2011-01-03 10:04
I'm not a programmer so this might be way off target for what is possible but I was just wondering in relation to the "Can Sony block this" discussion.

Wouldn't it be possible for Sony to introduce a new code signing mechanishm alongside the one that's currently beeing used.? That way they could fix the broken random stuff and have all new games/code use this mechanishm to verify if they are legit. Sure all code released until this point will be able to run without checks but all new games/code won't be able to be pirated?

Just a thought.

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# Tenrai 2011-01-03 10:28
*This is a sad day indeed at least for the honest lot, I condemn piracy!* --Meh

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# LoL Ps3 Security 2011-01-03 10:29
So I Can Jailbreak my ps3 without any USB Dongle or Something?

Just To Download.....Something And Turnin of my PS3 and im Jailbroken?!?!!

NICE!

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# TarkinMX 2011-01-03 10:43
@helghast

Didn't you just kinda do the same thing? You're calling him names without giving your reason why. At least his response made sense, yours just sounds like you got mad about the way he said it.

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# war breaker 2011-01-03 10:54
yeah, read a little more, that hasnt happened yet

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# TarkinMX 2011-01-03 11:04
@Atomizer

Is Geohot a member of fail0verflow? I didn't think he was but I guess you're singling him out bc he made his name public. But I do agree that its surprising that nothing has been done to him yet. Ive wondered often why Apple hasn't done anything to him for all the work in the iPhone scene but with the supreme court recently ruling that its ok to run custom firmware or whatever I guess they can't.

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# tshsa 2011-01-03 12:11
Ok Any one just can show a video or something to be the best day in my live :) i'm 3.55 so I'M really tired downgrade , this mean goodbye jailbreaks and e3 card all of them

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# 2escapereality 2011-01-03 12:18
Get real guys!
This is a sad day indeed.
Now which gaming company / publisher will release exclusives (or any game for that matter) for the PS3 knowing that their game is gonna be pirated and ripped apart? They will just conclude that its not worth the effort. No more MGS, infamous, GOW..
We will be left to the homebrew community, who i doubt can come up with quality content.
The PS3 is dead..

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# Jo Blo 2011-01-03 12:23
You're joking I hope......even with the original xbox which was hacked to pieces only a very small percentage of users pirated games. MS lost money on xbox b/c of the hardware cost, in fact figures showed no change in software sales before and after the hacks.

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# Dee 2011-01-03 12:30
The ps3 is not dead not if they dont hire geo hottz who offer is anti hacking knowledge!! If i was sony ill hire him!!

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# jbax24 2011-01-03 12:30
Man some of yall don't know what you are talking about. The ps3 is not dead...if anything this will open up new possibilities allowing the hardware to do things Sony didn't design it to originally. This is great news, and to think that game publishers would stop making games for the PS3 is crazy. People still buy games, and use the PS3 legitimately so developers will still make games. I've been here since the start, and I continue to see haters of progress made. If you aren't contributing or wanting to hack your PS3, then why are you here? (2escapereality )

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# lorxor 2011-01-03 12:43
I dont know, I think its way to early to tell. Sony has an Armada of software engineers at their hands so they will probably come up with somethingto prevent piracy for the next generation of games. The ineresting part is that we can now look at the decrypted firmware as a whole, directly out of the installer, bring linux back and wont have to be resorting to fancy exploits for running homebrew.

So this would mean proper homebrew with all functions of the PS3 accessible, altered firmwares with extra features/modules and the ability to run linux.
The piracy thing will most probably get fixed by some means at least for the new games (read: revoking lists, new alternative signing etc.)

I for once am not interested in piracy and am buying all my games legally. I dont care about the people who are to lazy to afford the ~10-20€ for a used game, I think this is more than fair when you see that the programmers of good games need to get payed.
But I am more than exited about the new possibilities for hackers/programmers and new possibilities to use my beloved PS3.

Lets hope good things are in the making. :)

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# Kurisuellegarden 2011-01-03 13:03
Buying used games is the same as pirating, since the developers receive none of those sales.

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# Garry 2011-01-03 13:04
Mate, all consoles die eventually...and all the software houses will continue to produce games until the release of the next gen consoles. The Xbox 360 has been hacked for a couple of years but the software houses are still releasing the games. Although piracy may now become a minor thorn in the side and may even make an impact on profit margins, I doubt very much that the software houses will just stop churning out games. They can't afford to just sit around and wait for the next gen consoles to be released. For every 1 pirate copy that may or may not be used there will be several legit copies, because not everyone will understand the workings, not everyone is dis-honest and not everyone will even be aware that the system has been breached. And realistically how much life is left in the PS3 anyway. I for one want to be able to extend the life of my console with the return of my Linux (which Sony Stole from me) and Homebrew, does not mean I'm automatically a Pirate....

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# Dark3mx 2011-01-03 13:23
I don't care for pirating games on the PS3, and I don't care about the OtherOS option being taken. What I care about, is being able to play my damn PS2 games! Hopefully within the next few days/weeks. Some sort of modification of the 3.55 update will allow people to play their classic titles again.

People on 3.55 already shouldn't be left out of the picture either. Since, if there is a modified 3.55, you can install it through the recovery menu that was included in the 2.55 update.

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# lorxor 2011-01-03 13:36
Yeah I know what you mean. I was maybe a bit unclear: I meant when I buy a used game the guy who sold it to me is probably gonna buy a new one. So you are not directly supporting the developers, but it's better than pirating, since it increases the number of games sold as a whole in contrast to piracy where in the worst case only one game is sold and then copied and there is no cashflow at all.

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# Zetsu 2011-01-03 13:43
Well, it looks like its time to go back to systems with cartridges and no form of expansion slots!! Would totally be happy if I had to blow into a cartridge for MGS 5 to get it working! lol

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# Garry 2011-01-03 13:45
I am getting so bored with the term Pirate/Piracy being used as an excuse for Console/Software manufacturers to try and lock down a system...

Not everyone who unlocks the system is a pirate, and I think to conclude that Joe Blogs who is using a modified console is a pirate is slanderous.

Sony thought nothing of stealing my ability to run Linux in the first place, why should I feel any guilt if this new breach returns it back to me, I paid for it, what right did they have to take it away.

Running HomeBrew and/or Linux is NOT Piracy.

Now lets stop groaning about the "DEATH OF THE PS3" and the onset of "PIRACY", and sit back and see what the console can really do with "FREELY AVAILABLE LEGAL SOFTWARE"....

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# Garry 2011-01-03 14:00
I didn't mean the Console/Software manufacturers themselves using Pirates/Piracy as an excuse, Of course they have right to protect their products.

I mean the people who try and scare monger on forums such as this......

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# tshsa 2011-01-03 14:45
guys can some one tell me how to you the ps3 key or how they used

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# Average Joe 2011-01-03 14:53
GT5 & NFSHP Both Working Now! Enjoy ~

You can thank me later (kidding..:p)

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# MikeTheInfidel 2011-01-03 16:24
"Anyone" also includes people who don't even own a PS3...

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# rangborn 2011-01-03 18:24
The whole "Now it's hacked, it's dead" argument is really stupid, IMO.

By the same logic, there'd be no PC exclusives or even releases, if all the devs/publishers sat back and thought "Oh, well they'll only download a crack for it, so why bother?"

Yet PC gaming lives on (and it's the easiest platform to "rape")

IMO, the PS3 was a "failure" long before it got hacked. It didn't sell well from the outset.

The Wii could be softmodded and that didn't stop it selling millions of games. The 360 can still be hacked using nothing more than a PC with a SATA connection.. is it failing? Nope..

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# deershoot3r 2011-01-03 20:11
Acutally if the ps3 is setup like most consoles they will be able to tell a difference between un signed and signed, all they have to do is have what ever you open be written to the NAND and then have the NAND send a annon message back to sony that will say whether the file has been signed or not, and if has been booted or tried to be booted. there fore tracing that back to the specific NAND id or mac address (probably not mac address cause we will be able to change that) and banning the user that was logged onto the account at the time of access. This is similar to the Xbox's jtag hack and flashed drives. everything is written to the nand and when you go online it sned them all the ids of things written on the NAND and they determine whether the Executed code was signed or not.

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# banned hammer 2011-01-03 23:41
So AWESOME! This is a true treat. THANKS EVERYONE FOR YOUR HARD WORK.

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# blandyman 2011-01-04 07:00
Do you realize how stupid this sounds? Do you think the PS3 is the first console to get hacked in any way?

I'm not gonna back up the idea that "nooo we did it for homebrew!" Yes, that's part of it, but piracy is a big deal, and emulators are piracy too (I use them all the time, doesn't change the fact that they're TECHNICALLY not official, sanctioned, blah)

The 360 was hacked early in its release. Was Fable 3 multiplatform? Gears 2? Gears 3? Halos? It's stupid to assume anyone's gonna stop making exclusives.

Also, why are exclusives your big concern? You think because a game goes multiplatform it won't be as good as God of War currently is or any other first-party title (like Naughty, Insom, Sucker's games)? You're a silly fanboy trying to back up your favorite company because the name "PlayStation" tickles your tits.

Piracy will always exist, and as long as video-game hardware and software come separate, it will be attempted (piracy on DS? PSP? Dreamcast? GameCube? PS2? Xbox 1? GBA?) and honestly, pirates don't pirate to avoid paying for games... they were never going to pay for them anyway. And if the piracy wasn't possible, sure, they might have bought a couple of games... but probably used (I do that). Does buying them used still give money to the developer? Of course not, but it saves me $5-10.

You wanna stop this? Console makers need to get smarter about piracy protection. It's not about making it IMPOSSIBLE, it's about making it UNDESIRABLE. Bans is one step, sure. But make your retail games matter... good packaging, special features. Old school games used to bring awesome manuals, sometimes cool random shit. GTAs always brought maps/posters and big manuals with lots of information. Special keys in retail copies of games that provide the player with certain benefits in the game. (And no, "special gun with +2 attack" unlocked at the beginning is not a good one. Make it so if you have the retail key, and remain logged into the online service while you play, you can actively get better loot as you play... certain combos (in a single-player beat em up) are available. RPG players gain more experience. Unlock several extra skins/items for use in multiplayer (even if just for dressing the player... gamers love this shit.)

The problem is game development has become an industry where studios are just pumping money at a problem: efficiency. Making games is becoming more expensive but the technology is not evolving to stay the same price as it becomes more capable, but rather to scale equally (if not exponentially). Once the industry can learn to cut costs (newer techniques/technologies for faster/smarter modeling, environment creation, texture synthesization, and middleware that is cross-platform and widespread) then they can make back their sales easier, and they can LOWER THE PRICE OF GAMES.

It's ridiculous to have a game cost $60 for a decent single-player experience. This changes a little with multiplayer-focused games, but even then, a lot of them don't justify a $60 price tag in my opinion. Now, if you told me Mass Effect 2 would come out at $40, hell yeah, if I have $40 I'm picking it up. And if you told me Halo: Reach was gonna be $40 considering the fact the single-player story was more filler than all the stuff backed up in my colon, but thankfully had an amazing level editor, but otherwise, games are way too expensive. $60 for the Bourne Conspiracy? $50 for Cooking Mama Wii? These companies are fucking crazy.

We've agreed that "$50" is a good price for a video-game, but look at movies. They charge $20 for a copy of the video once it comes out on video, originally making its money on the tickets. Why not do the same with games? You want an exclusive video-game? Internet required, you can have the game one month early if you play it by streaming it through PSN, or Xbox Live, or WiiWare or whatever, by paying a fee (say, $30 for the ability to access it sooner and through digital medium), then, it comes out in retail for either the same price or slightly cheaper. Gamers will pay for a premium, and if not, the hype machine from the people who DID pay for the premium will drive later sales. And we all know digital sales help a lot with the problem of packaging/distribution costs.

The problem is, the infrastructure doesn't exist because companies aren't looking ahead. Blockbuster is LOSING to Netflix and Redbox because the people of Blockbuster didn't think of being the first to do a mail-order business, and when Netflix came around, they should've jumped on that bandwagon before it picked up steam. "Waiting it out" is what let them fall by the wayside, eventually launching their online/mail-order service and nearly going bankrupt in the process. Now Redbox, another ingenious idea (I started renting from these at the local grocery store over 2 years ago) is taking off, because it's so convenient to get the money from a convenient location. You grocery shop on a Friday, see the redbox, decide, fuck it, lemme get Such and Such, and bam, they got your money. But if you're already driving home with a bunch of groceries, even if Blockbuster is ON THE WAY, do you wanna get down to rent a movie? Especially when it costs MORE? Fuck no. And believe me, you don't have to be a genius to know that if Blockbuster innovated the mail-order game, or at least kept up with the trend, OR had Redbox with their brand?! THAT SHIT WOULD BLOW UP!!

But alas, companies don't know how to look ahead. It's all about making as much money as we can NOW and doing as much as we can with what we have NOW. If something comes along that threatens us, it's not about embracing it and figuring out the elegant solution to subvert it, it's about fighting it head on, even if you're a single knight with no sword against the mightiest dragon the world's ever seen.

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This was supposed to be a reply to someone else. However the information still applies, if the anger seems a little non-sequitur.

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# Carroll B. Merriman 2011-02-07 18:22
I'll gear this review to 2 types of people: current Zune owners who are considering an upgrade, and people trying to decide between a Zune and an iPod. (There are other players worth considering out there, like the Sony Walkman X, but I hope this gives you enough info to make an informed decision of the Zune vs players other than the iPod line as well.)

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# Burton Haynes 2011-02-08 15:42
The Zune concentrates on being a Portable Media Player. Not a web browser. Not a game machine. Maybe in the future it'll do even better in those areas, but for now it's a fantastic way to organize and listen to your music and videos, and is without peer in that regard. The iPod's strengths are its web browsing and apps. If those sound more compelling, perhaps it is your best choice.

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# Liv Taylor 2011-02-08 16:29
The Zune concentrates on being a Portable Media Player. Not a web browser. Not a game machine. Maybe in the future it'll do even better in those areas, but for now it's a fantastic way to organize and listen to your music and videos, and is without peer in that regard. The iPod's strengths are its web browsing and apps. If those sound more compelling, perhaps it is your best choice.

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Zune and iPod: Most people compare the Zune to the Touch, but after seeing how slim and surprisingly small and light it is, I consider it to be a rather unique hybrid that combines qualities of both the Touch and the Nano. It's very colorful and lovely OLED screen is slightly smaller than the touch screen, but the player itself feels quite a bit smaller and lighter. It weighs about 2/3 as much, and is noticeably smaller in width and height, while being just a hair thicker.

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